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old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

jeepohahyo
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leegao has written
Javascript's basically used to manipulate the output, the server can do that but i think it should be JS's job since the server's only responsible to send the information requested and will also reduce the stress on the server

Javascript is originally used to generate dynamical presentations on the page.
When you say that Javascript should modify the output to reduce the usage of the server's resources you are not right.
The server has to do exactly the same, if you generate the content after the site was sent, but if you put it in after sending, the user has to wait longer for the second request and the second data.

This may take a longer time, up to a few seconds with no texts on the screen, especially if you are a dial-up user.

If you say "the PHP-parser doesn't have to prepare the static content because it is delivered before" you must consider that static HTML-code in the scripts is skipped by the parser like a comment.


I don't know how much JavaScript is used in the American web landscape, but on most German sites you can browse without Javascript, except on those homebanking sites and the ajax pages already mentioned.

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

Lee
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thats my point, with AJAX you will still be able to interact with the screen, and yes, the orriginal purpose of JS was for dynamic content (tho not mostly presentation) however with the addition of DOM, many of JS' job nowaday is simply for effects and AJAX and some functionaly that can't be handled by the server, however, if sticking to the SERVER/CLIENT model then the server should only serve the requested information while it will be javascript's job to make it presentable and insert it into the DOM (hence the creation of DOM for JS)

basically what i'm saying is this:
the server serves out the html/css and JS first, which will create the interface, the JS will then make a call to the server for what ever information we might need, and if it is already JS' job to insert the data into the DOM, why not just serve the raw data and let JS present it, its very easy to do and very practical, ive seen many example of this on the web and from my friends

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

bizzl
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leegao has written
thats my point, with AJAX you will still be able to interact with the screen, and yes, the orriginal purpose of JS was for dynamic content (tho not mostly presentation) however with the addition of DOM, many of JS' job nowaday is simply for effects and AJAX

Javascript was always for effects and web application.

leegao has written
and some functionaly that can't be handled by the server,

Which does not include the insertion of data into a HTML-Framework.
That's something that can and should be done by the server. Otherwise your page won't be found by search engine crawlers.
Besides it's much faster to process and include data on the server, because they have more cpu-time for such stuff than the client has.

leegao has written
however, if sticking to the SERVER/CLIENT model then the server should only serve the requested information ...

Wikipedia has written
The term Web server can mean one of two things:

1. A computer program that is responsible for accepting HTTP requests from clients, which are known as Web browsers, and serving them HTTP responses along with optional data contents, which usually are Web pages such as HTML documents and linked objects (images, etc.).
2. A computer that runs a computer program which provides the functionality described in the first sense of the term.

[...]

The origin of the content sent by server is called:
* static if it comes from an existing file lying on a filesystem;
* dynamic if it is dynamically generated by some other program or script or API called by the Web server.

Sounds to me like processing the files is part of the server job description anyway, so why not use it?
It's much faster then client-side scripting.

leegao has written
while it will be javascript's job to make it presentable and insert it into the DOM (hence the creation of DOM for JS)

That's definitive not what JavaScript is for.

leegao has written
basically what i'm saying is this:
the server serves out the html/css and JS first, which will create the interface, the JS will then make a call to the server for what ever information we might need,

That makes sense... if you're providing a web service, like web mail, some sort of hosting or perhaps a webshop.
It does not make sense for private homepages, boards, guestbooks, and so on.
Besides, your Webhost doesn't seem to allow anything from the first group, and most free hoster doesn't allow traffic bombs like AJAX anyway.

leegao has written
and if it is already JS' job to insert the data into the DOM, why not just serve the raw data and let JS present it,

Because
a) it's not javascripts job to provide content
b) you'll have to convert the data between javascript and php anyway (Javascript can't handle raw database resources)
c) JavaScript is disabled o not supported (e.g. Lynx, elinks, Dillo, ABrowse, Voyager)
?

leegao has written
its very easy to do and very practical, ive seen many example of this on the web and from my friends

Gimme an example where there is AJAX on a website providing anything else then an application interface or a fancy widget

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

Lee
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by present i mean apending it into the DOM, the fact is, theres just as many sites that don't use AJAX as there are, and the full purpose of AJAX is not for widgets, i never said it is, AJAX is only used to retrieved the data from the server, the effects are just there (thru some library), but ive never said anything about widgets

yes, the server can insert the data into the html, but it will hard code it into the HTML, and besides, i don't think it's a good method when say you want to validate the contents of a form field, if doing this solely on the Serverside, extra coding is needed just to preserve the inputs, and it will also look unprofessional

also, for some reason i think you think that I use AJAX on every page of a site

for ex. on the homepage which i designed to be a static page with a few links to other parts...

ok, i like AJAX but i dont use it on every single page, only in the appropriate cases (a tool to get pictures or a real time chat)

yes, the processing part is the servers job, but what i mean by raw data is not a sql command or anything like that, i mean that it is processed, but not to the full extent and the javascript is then used flexibly to present (apend) the content

yes, the server is capable of doing this, but so can AJAX and JS, i just choose the latter on most cases

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

bizzl
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leegao has written
by present i mean apending it into the DOM, the fact is, theres just as many sites that don't use AJAX as there are, and the full purpose of AJAX is not for widgets, i never said it is, AJAX is only used to retrieved the data from the server, the effects are just there (thru some library), but ive never said anything about widgets

yup, you didn't. It's my opinion that AJAX is mostly useful for widgets

leegao has written
yes, the server can insert the data into the html, but it will hard code it into the HTML, and besides, i don't think it's a good method when say you want to validate the contents of a form field, if doing this solely on the Serverside, extra coding is needed just to preserve the inputs,

Woah, wait a minute. It's to much for you to add some echos or some {{SOMETHING}} into the template???
It really isn't that much you need to do

leegao has written
and it will also look unprofessional

Sure it's professional, it just isn't fancy

leegao has written
also, for some reason i think you think that I use AJAX on every page of a site

Sry, but it sound this way...

leegao has written
ok, i like AJAX but i dont use it on every single page, only in the appropriate cases (a tool to get pictures or a real time chat)

Real Time Chats are one of the reason for getting kicked of a free hoster
And all Professional Galleries I know don't use AJAX, btw.

leegao has written
yes, the processing part is the servers job, but what i mean by raw data is not a sql command or anything like that, i mean that it is processed, but not to the full extent and the javascript is then used flexibly to present (apend) the content

It sure makes sense, but not for every homepage.
There are few pages where AJAX makes sense, and fewer that actually use it.

leegao has written
yes, the server is capable of doing this, but so can AJAX and JS, i just choose the latter on most cases

Guess what: I wanna have an example of your work.
Is there some big service where you're part of the development team or something?

personal homepages needs AJAX (and most of the other Web 2.0 crap) as much as good Web Designers need FrontPage: not at all.
It sure makes a page fancy, but it doesn't make you look professional. Just bloated.

For the few sites that need JavaScript and which I actually use I can enable JavaScript. Every other has to live without it.

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

Lee
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come on, who doesnt wanna take a try at YAHOO UI or JQuery

and of course, i dont have AJAX on the front page, like you said, its only good if you use it properly

I'm making a redesign of the site right now and yes, its a personal site but who says i cant use ajax however, im not like goin nuts with it (using it to get the contents of the page is a little extreme) and of course, everyone wanted to try the eyeapealing effects library of course, i'm not a minimalist, but i'm not also the kind who have 10 different colors on my page just cuz it looks fancy

but i have to admit, i'm underguilt of trying to make my site web2.0 (the badges and roundcorners ;P) but i just wanna have it for a template

my proposed design wud be something like this
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/427/boxydesignri9.png
its not minimalist, but its soothing and since i don't use much text on my site, its perfect

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

jeepohahyo
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An advice:
Put your form validation on the server-side or your forms will be an open door for attempts in SQL-Injections (in guestbooks) or your E-Mail-Forms will become a platform to spread spam with your E-Mail-Address in the header at "From:"
And if you put these checks on the server side, it is not more work to validate the data properly

And I'm not sure anymore what you mean exactly with Web2.0, because you say the round-corners would be Web2.0-like.

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

bizzl
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leegao has written
come on, who doesnt wanna take a try at YAHOO UI or JQuery

actually never heard of it

leegao has written
I'm making a redesign of the site right now and yes, its a personal site but who says i cant use ajax however, im not like goin nuts with it (using it to get the contents of the page is a little extreme) and of course, everyone wanted to try the eyeapealing effects library

to be honest, I get best designs when abadoning javascript
Don't need any fancy effect library, just a better browser (mostly anything except IE and some exotic browsers will do)

leegao has written
but i have to admit, i'm underguilt of trying to make my site web2.0 (the badges and roundcorners ;P) but i just wanna have it for a template

badges & round corners? Do you refer to the new stuff CSS 3 brings?
CSS isn't part of the definition of web 2.0
This term has more a social than a technical meaning, see Wikipedia

leegao has written
my proposed design wud be something like this
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/427/boxydesignri9.png

ewwww IMG:https://www.vocinelweb.it/faccine/confuse/pag2/60.gif

It is... gros IMG:https://www.countingcows.de/baeh1_boese.gif


no, honest, it's not really a nice design. Much colors, no content, and it sort of narcissistic. I mean, there is really nothing that makes it cool, and just because you use some javascript and fancy css it doesn't make you web 2.0 (there is a bit more).

Besides, it will probably break when I zoom in via Ctrl++
(Have a rather high resolution, and X doesn't want to get down)
leegao has written
its not minimalist, but its soothing and since i don't use much text on my site, its perfect

No, it's just crap.
Not content means no visitors, plus the design is not really attractive.

Tip form someone who already had a homepage:
first get content, then make design. And then make a design that makes reading your content easy!

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

Lee
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how much content do you need for a about me page ;P plus, the meat of the content is in the blog which is a whole different site, too much content and little design isn't very good either white background with a red border around the site gives a feeling that predominates the 90's and the web2.0's supposed to be a joke...

i'm not sure most of my audience will try to double zoom the page.. but they can since its not a fixed style (actually, the page won't break unless you magnify it 5 times and even then its only because of the text itself occupies half the screen)

also, ive had a homepage too but this is only a design, not the my home page
edited 1×, last 12.07.07 06:47:51 am

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

Lee
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also, i believe in semantic web which means that tables and styling tags (except for the <style>) are things that i'm not gonna use

btw bizzl, it might make the file size of your html document smaller if you used lists for the menu instead of tables and even more easier if you just replace the tables completely with divs and spans, just 1 line of code can center the div (margin:auto;) and a few more to create the same layout as your site with more attractive menu, also, it might be nice to lighten the green background while darken the color to a heavier green or a semi-light blue
edited 1×, last 12.07.07 12:34:02 am

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

bizzl
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leegao has written
how much content do you need for a about me page ;P plus, the meat of the content is in the blog which is a whole different site,

So, why not either move your blog to your homepage or stick with the blog site?

leegao has written
too much content and little design isn't very good either white background with a red border around the site gives a feeling that predominates the 90's and the web2.0's supposed to be a joke...

The red bordered page is temporary.
I have a better version offline, but it makes problems with IE7.
Besides, I like this design. It's not fancy, and not wobbling, but it's easy readable Enough for a starter page.

leegao has written
i'm not sure most of my audience will try to double zoom the page.. but they can since its not a fixed style (actually, the page won't break unless you magnify it 5 times and even then its only because of the text itself occupies half the screen)

Believe me, even floating style pages break up

leegao has written
also, ive had a homepage too but this is only a design, not the my home page

I know that this is not your homepage, but the design still sucks

leegao has written
btw bizzl, it might make the file size of your html document smaller if you used lists for the menu instead of tables

I've good reasons to use tables instead of lists:
1) you can divide tables with headers
2) list do not have cells. I usually use CSS do make the menu items highlighted over the whole width of the cell

I know this doesn't fits to my starter page, but I won't edit this version anymore.
But my old homepage had this sort of menus.

leegao has written
and even more easier if you just replace the tables completely with divs and spans, just 1 line of code can center the div (margin:auto;) and a few more to create the same layout as your site with more attractive menu,

divs and spans make loosy tables.
Also, vertical-align: middle doesn't work very well with divs.
As I said above, I have a new design for the starter page. Still with tables, but fancier then this one.

leegao has written
also, it might be nice to lighten the green background while darken the color to a heavier green or a semi-light blue

are you talking about this site?
Sorry lad, that's not my homepage. I just host it.
I admit that I made the design... but that was about two years ago
My mom wanted green, and she got green.
There are no updates though, since the site owner doesn't give me feedback.

My personal homepage is down since about march (See this stub. If you can't read it, use google translation, it can't screw up much :P)

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

jeepohahyo
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leegao: Pages can exist without JavaScript and ajax and an really easy but nice looking design, examples:

http://www.w3.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/ > No ajax and a part of your Web 2.0
http://www.ubuntuusers.de/ > Few boxes (like that if you click in the Wiki on "Suchen") but still as good as no Javascript
http://www.unrealsoftware.de/
http://slashdot.org/

All these sites don't require Javascript for displaying their contents, they have a nice design though AND they are professional

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

lenz-_-
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yep...lol wikipedia is really a good site and it dont have javascript included some kinda genious created it...
well a genious that knows good htnl

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

Lee
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w00t, i got busy the past few days and finished this design

http://www.webshapes.org/public/templates/2007071310659298032/index.html

also, if you'll notice, non of my pages actually includes JS, but i'm still horrified by the thought of people who have it off

also, for people who have css turned off, i can only say this:

if you don't have css on, then you probably don't expect to see a good site

and yes, ik all about how each layout breaks, however, i say to myself, who are my audiences? And I came up with a pretty good answer, they're mostly friends and other webdesigners who all have at least a 800X600 resolution (tho i test it on lower) and most likely uses FF/IE/Safari (all works, tho with a few css hacks to make it work)

but the question is this, if you use tables, can you create a semantic markup that normal people can look and just go like, oh this must be the header b/c its ID is header

by replacing table i mean only for layouts, not for data (see my comment about sematics)

vertical-aligns mostly for text, but a good way for complete centering is this

suppose you have a square the length of n, the code for it been centered would be this:
left:50%;
top:50%;
width:n px;
height:n px;
margin:-npx -npx;

and of course, i too knw the values of No-Script and the web-developer's toolbar, but i onyl use them to test functionality of a site, not to block pop-ups

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

bizzl
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leegao has written
w00t, i got busy the past few days and finished this design

http://www.webshapes.org/public/templates/2007071310659298032/index.html

I must admit that the design looks good.
But I have two things to complain:
1) lower the contrast in the backgrounds of quote and pre . The Symbols you used as background images make the text hardly readable
2) You should move the "supported browsers" icons below the navigation. They're less important.

leegao has written
also, if you'll notice, non of my pages actually includes JS, but i'm still horrified by the thought of people who have it off

also, for people who have css turned off, i can only say this:

if you don't have css on, then you probably don't expect to see a good site

Hey, no panic. CSS can't be used for exploits, so most people let it enabled (except the few freaks using Netscape-4.x with disabled JS Technical Reasons)


leegao has written
and yes, ik all about how each layout breaks, however, i say to myself, who are my audiences? And I came up with a pretty good answer, they're mostly friends and other webdesigners who all have at least a 800X600 resolution (tho i test it on lower) and most likely uses FF/IE/Safari (all works, tho with a few css hacks to make it work)

Yeah, 800x600 is good minimum
Though, your design doesn't work properly with 1400x1050
http://bizzl.bi.funpic.de/private/exchange/tgv.png
Happens with Firefox 2.0.0.4, Opera 9.20 and Konqueror 3.5.6

leegao has written
but the question is this, if you use tables, can you create a semantic markup that normal people can look and just go like, oh this must be the header b/c its ID is header

I think you mean table captions/headers. Normal people don't see IDs
But that's actually how most of my menus and designs work (having a title for grouping)

leegao has written
by replacing table i mean only for layouts, not for data (see my comment about sematics)



leegao has written
vertical-aligns mostly for text,

vertical-align works with inline elements, which includes images and afair even objects.

leegao has written
but a good way for complete centering is this

suppose you have a square the length of n, the code for it been centered would be this:
left:50%;
top:50%;
width:n px;
height:n px;
margin:-npx -npx;

1) left and top doesn't do any work without absolute or fixed position.
2) Margin is for outer distance. For Inner distance you have to use padding, which doesn't show any effect, anyway.
3) This code places the div to rect(-n, -n, 0, 0), which is (if used inside of <body> ) out of the view.
4) centering text with padding looks arkward

I think I stick with the tables, since they produces less glitches
Besides, menus and some special types of frames (windows-style, with title) are semantic tables

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

Lee
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actually, if you do margin -npx on a DIV with a width and height of npx at 50% left and top (of course theyre absolute positioned, it should be obvious ;)) the box will actually be effectively completely centered (and i think you knew it too :P) this is just a technique for centering block elements since inline elements can just be centered using the text-align property

AT the offset of the background, i', thinking of creating a strip of bacground and make it repeat-x only, and then create a new layer for the sun more flexible and then i can even incorporate a completely different style depending on the user's preference

they are semantic, in a way, but the mark-up itself is not

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

bizzl
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leegao has written
actually, if you do margin -npx on a DIV with a width and height of npx at 50% left and top (of course theyre absolute positioned, it should be obvious ;)) the box will actually be effectively completely centered (and i think you knew it too :P) this is just a technique for centering block elements since inline elements can just be centered using the text-align property

Oh... okay, you want the box to be centered. But your code is still wrong.
First, you have to add
1
position: absolute
, or otherwise left and top haven't any effect. Second, the margin must be -(n/2), or otherwise the box is not centered, but it's right lower corner.

leegao has written
AT the offset of the background, i', thinking of creating a strip of bacground and make it repeat-x only, and then create a new layer for the sun more flexible and then i can even incorporate a completely different style depending on the user's preference

User preferences on a personal homepage/blog are useless and senseless, but if you want you can do this.

leegao has written
they are semantic, in a way, but the mark-up itself is not

So, where is the problem? I use tables to present data that can be presented that way, and divs shall never be tables
And it IS logical that a navigation table should be <table>, not <ol>


Besides, I would appreciate it if you would use the quoting function, your posts are hard to decipher without reference


This post was made using elinks, due to wlan problems.
Thanks goes to DC, who used tables for the whole page, because if he would have used divs, I wouldn't be able to see the page correctly. Thanks buddy

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

Lee
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oops, i meant to say n/2 with the absolute positioning

the design's actually a template so i just wannted to give the users some choices

its actually more sensible to use a list for menu since a menu itself is a 'list' of links not a table o f links

the use of ordered lists or unordered is still debated, some people uses ordered lists for menu since they represent the importance of each link, but I use unoredered list since the importance of the link is determined by the placement of the links

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

bizzl
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leegao has written
its actually more sensible to use a list for menu since a menu itself is a 'list' of links not a table o f links

*sigh* Yes, they are lists, but there are some things you can't format properly in lists (e.g. button-like highlighting doesn't work as I wish)

leegao has written
the use of ordered lists or unordered is still debated, some people uses ordered lists for menu since they represent the importance of each link, but I use unoredered list since the importance of the link is determined by the placement of the links

Actually, I just had <ol> first in mind. My menus would be implemented as <ul>




I think we got to a point where this gets stupid. Why? Because neither of use will change his POV about tables, divs and lists
You can stick to your freaking lists, I'll stay with my tables. Neither approch is wrong.
However, I would appreciate if you (and any other web designer of your school) would stay away from eye cancer designs (like on the pic you posted) and big amounts of javascript & Co on private pages. It's not fun to wait 5mins and a dozen minimal reloads just to change a page

old Re: How to get rid of anoying sites

stealth
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bizzl has written
This post was made using elinks, due to wlan problems.
Thanks goes to DC, who used tables for the whole page, because if he would have used divs, I wouldn't be able to see the page correctly. Thanks buddy

I dont understand that

If there are tables, then you cant view the page on every browser (especialy not on handhelds), because all those tables may get such a low width that it gets unreadable.
But if the nav is a styled list above the content of the page, then without css, you see at first only the nav, and then the content of the page. You should be able to read it on every browser

And actually in html shall not be any style things at all

But, i dont dislike tables. Not as much as javascript
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